Entrevista a Carolyn Leckie

Carolyn Leckie ha estat a Catalunya durant cinc dies invitada per Esquerres pel SiSi, difonent la situaciò actual d’Escòcia després del referendum i explicant com les dones s’han possat en marxa i moltes han entrat en la política a partir de lalluita per la independència. Aquesta és una entrevista que li ha fet l’Andreu Barnils per Vilaweb.

Entrevista a la política i sindicalista escocesa, ex-diputada al Parlament i membre de “Dones per la Independència”

“S’hauria d’amenaçar el govern espanyol amb l’expulsió de la UE”

Carolyn Leckie (1965) va ser diputada al parlament escocès per l’Scottish Socialist Party. Després de deixar la política parlamentària, i el partit, va ser un dels puntals de l’organització Dones per la Independència a Escòcia. Aquests dies ha estat a Catalunya convidada per Esquerres pel Sí Sí i ha pogut percebre l’ambient del país. VilaWeb va entrevistar ahir a la senyora Leckie, que es mostra molt contundent amb el govern espanyol: creu que caldria amenaçar-lo de ser expulsat de la UE per comportament antidemocràtic i pel fet de no respectar el dret d’autodeterminació.

  • Heu estat una setmana a Catalunya. Amb qui heu parlat?

M’he trobat amb Carme Forcadell. Una dona impressionant, formidable. Té una situació complicada a davant. Veig que hi ha moltes dificultats amb el govern espanyol. I amb els partits catalans no és fàcil, tampoc. Dimarts també vaig tenir una reunió a la universitat per a parlar amb dones sobre la independència.

  • A Escòcia les dones independentistes es van organitzar de manera autònoma.

– Per diverses raons. En primer lloc, al començament de la campanya hi havia molta diferència entre homes i dones que donaven suport a la independència. Les dones anaven molt endarrere. Estratègicament, havíem de reduir aquesta diferència. A més, als debats televisats hi participaven majoritàriament homes. No era gaire atractiu per a les dones. Que les dones fossin a la primera línia i treballessin de manera autònoma va ser molt important. Les dones hi surten guanyant, amb l’autoorganització. Aquesta és la meva prioritat. Dones per la Independència ens hem organitzat i hem creat poder al nostre voltant i ara els partits polítics i altres organitzacions ens veuen importants i ens demanen l’aprovació. És important que la política parli també en el llenguatge de les dones.

  • Heu estat una militant d’esquerres i activista sindical. Us han detingut en vagues. Quin consell doneu als sindicats catalans?

– Crec que la gent ha de prendre decisions segons les circumstàncies. A vegades has d’enfrontar-te a lleis injustes. Si ho has intentat tot amb els mitjans democràtics i cívics, però tot el sistema no és democràtic ni just, aleshores se’t presenta una gran qüestió: què cal fer? Crec que emprendre un moviment de masses, desobediència inclosa si és necessària, pot ser una tàctica efectiva. Ara, no crec que una persona de fora, com jo, pugui dir què s’ha de fer. Estic segura que gent com Carme Forcadell, per exemple, són extremadament intel·ligents i saben perfectament què fer. Perquè realment ha de ser molt difícil d’aplegar gent amb tants interessos diferents. Aconseguir el consens i la coherència ha de ser molt difícil.

  • S’entén el cas català a Escòcia?

– A Escòcia som conscients que teníem el dret de decidir, però a Catalunya no us el reconeixen. Crec que hi ha semblances i diferències. El govern espanyol és clarament menys perspicaç… i brutal i repressor contra el moviment. L’estat britànic, tanmateix, no és tan benigne com sembla. Més llest, sí. Però també fa pressió. Fa segles que ho fan i tenen la imatge de diplomàtics. Però al darrere hi ha força.

  • Vós sí que ho veieu clar. Però a Escòcia se sap que no ens deixen votar, o el missatge no hi ha arribat?

– Ho veuen confós. Just abans de venir, les notícies que ens van arribar era que el referèndum per la independència havia estat cancel·lat. La gent em deia ‘per què hi vas si ja ho han anul·lat?’ Passa igual que aquí. La gent es pensa que com que hem votat que no, la cosa desapareixerà. Doncs les coses, aquí i allà, no són tan senzilles com això. La gent no entén la situació d’aquí ni les complexitats. Crec que la gent ha subestimat la capacitat de l’estat espanyol. Tinc la impressió que els catalans sí que són conscients del poder de l’estat espanyol i el context històric i de la importància de l’estratègia de construir solidaritat internacional i suport fins al punt que el govern espanyol quedi aïllat. Hauria d’haver-hi pressió diplomàtica. A Europa hi ha un principi: el dret d’autodeterminació es reconeix. Com se’n pot sortir Espanya? Com pot sortir-se’n si no deixa votar la gent a Catalunya, el País Basc o Galícia? La ironia és que líders europeus han dit a Escòcia i Catalunya que si es fan independents no estarien a Europa. Més aviat hauria de passar que si el govern espanyol no permet el dret d’autodeterminació l’amenacessin amb l’expulsió de la UE. Pel fet de no comportar-se de manera democràtica, i no respectar els principis democràtics que Europa defensa.

  • Tenint present el vostre passat d’activista, imagineu-vos que sou catalana i no us deixen votar. Faríeu activisme al carrer?

– Sí. Els polítics no es comporten mai de manera benvolent i altruista envers la gent. Només compleixen allò que la gent vol sota la pressió de la gent. Si aquesta pressió no hi és, els polítics no compleixen.

  • Què passarà a Escòcia? Hi haurà un altre referèndum?

– Crec que sí. En els cinc anys vinents, ho veurem. Hi ha maneres diverses de veure-ho, qui fa la nova crida, etc. Però el moviment no desapareixerà. De fet, ja hi ha gent que va votar no i que se’n penedeix. Tenim eleccions a Westminster, que crec que tornaran a guanyar els ‘tories’. Aviat ens faran entrar en una altra guerra i tenim les eleccions escoceses el 2016. Hi ha molts fets i circumstàncies que portaran a un clamor encara més gran per a tenir un altre referèndum abans de cinc anys.

  • Vau ser membre del parlament escocès pel Partit Socialista d’Escòcia durant quatre anys.

– Vam intentar portar les demandes de la gent dins el parlament. Només vam estar-hi quatre anys i no ens van votar més. Té a veure amb les polítiques de la dona i el poder. Però en alguns aspectes ens en vam sortir i en alguns no. Érem un partit petit i teníem poder limitat. Jo ja no hi milito, i també per això em vaig involucrar tant en Dones per la Independència. En el camp de l’esquerra hi ha molt moviment, ara. Tot el moviment de la gent ha empès cap a l’esquerra. L’esfondrament del Partit Laborista, l’SNP que es mou cap a l’esquerra, possibles moviments de Radical for Independence, etc.

  • Quina ironia, oi? Catalans i escocesos volem la independència, i el nacionalisme és a l’altra banda. I nosaltres som els que tenim el suport de les esquerres.

– Totalment d’acord. Això al Regne Unit va ser claríssim. Molta part de la campanya del no era nacionalisme britànic. No ho deien obertament, però ho era. No hi havia raó ni lògica, sinó nacionalisme britànic. El Partit Laborista, per exemple, feia servir l’argument de la solidaritat. Per què el Regne Unit té el monopoli de la solidaritat? La solidaritat es té amb la gent, no amb els estats. La solidaritat es pot tenir amb la gent de l’Amèrica del Sud, Catalunya, el Canadà, l’Índia, etc. El sí tenia una mirada internacionalista i pretenia ser una força pacífica i progressista. Volíem treure’ns de sobre les armes nuclears, no volíem entrar en guerres arreu i volíem millorar la societat. A mesura que la campanya va anar avançant va quedar clar que el sí era d’esquerres, progressista i de classe obrera, i que el no era majoritàriament conservador, de classe mitjana i pudent. Pessimista, un vot pessimista i estret de mires.

  • Amb quina impressió us n’aneu de Catalunya?

– Estic estupefacte de veure el talent que teniu dins el moviment. I de veure el contrast d’aquest talent amb la tossuderia del govern espanyol i la seva resistència. És tan antidemocràtic! És tan dolent de veure com es tracta un moviment tan vibrant, en una regió tan rica, plena de gent intel·ligent, articulada i implicada. Ara, també sóc més conscient de la complexitat i no us envejo gens la feina que us espera, ni l’estrès que he vist en tanta gent. Jo us desitjo tota la sort, tota, i estaré molt al cas de la vostra situació.

 

Andreu Barnils

Divendres 24.10.14


 

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